AC: Hi Michael, thanks so much for taking the time to chat! First, for those unfamiliar with your work, can you tell us a little about your series Riyria Revelations, Riyria Chronicles, and Legends of the First Empire? What are they like, how are they related?
MJS: Hey, AC, thanks for having me. So, the first thing for people to know is that all my books exist in the same world (like Sanderson’s Cosmere universe). That said, they can be read independently of one another. In other words, you don’t need to know anything about Riyria to enjoy Legends and vice versa. But, for those who do read all the books, there will be little winks and nods for “people in the know.”
The Riyria Revelations start out as fun, fast-paced adventures with a cynical ex-assassin and an optimistic ex-mercenary who are framed for the murder of a king. But the story is built in layers, and by the time you are done, mysteries have thickened, treacheries are uncovered, and the stakes have become epic. The best thing about this series is its ending where all the puzzle pieces fall into place, and everything is, well, revealed.
The Riyria Chronicles goes back a few years and shows how Royce and Hadrian met and became a team with “a very particular set of skills.” Those books were written because so many people missed Team Riyria when Revelations was over. They provide more or less standalone adventures with characters that people connect with as if they were real-life friends. For people who are Riyria-curious. You could read The Death of Dulgath or The Disappearance of Winter’s Daughter without committing to the full six books of Revelations. Then, if you want more, you’ll have nine more books to dig into.
Legends of the First Empire is epic from its start and includes a large ensemble cast. This series allows me to explore a pivotal time 3,000 years before Riyria and starts in Elan's bronze age. It shows the true events surrounding the Great War when humans discovered that the race they thought were gods are just a long-lived and highly advanced race. For those who have read Riyria, you'll get the added benefit of seeing through the many lies I told about Elan's past. After all, history is written by the victors who can usurp the deeds of an unlikely group of misfits who were the true architects for building Elan's future.
AC: Your books remind me of the classic fantasy I grew up reading. Can you talk about what has inspired your writing?
MJS: It’s funny you would say that because my author tagline is “Unlikely Heroes, Classic Adventure.” I’m an old geezer, so I started with Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, and Ursula K. LeGuin. Back in those early days, we didn’t have the breadth of fantasy that is available now. The first book I wrote (when I was all of thirteen) was a sequel to The Lord of the Rings. I quickly realized how big a mistake that was, so I started writing my own tales. Years later, when I became more serious about writing, I tried all kinds of fiction: fantasy, sci-fi, thrillers, horror, coming-of-age, literary—just about everything except romance and westerns.
I wrote thirteen novels and got nowhere in publishing, so I quit entirely. More than a decade later, I picked up a copy of Harry Potter for my daughter. Reading it reminded me how fun it is to escape into a wondrous fantasy with great characters and that reignited my desire to write. So I returned to the keyboard, but only on the condition that I didn’t seek publication. Ironically, it was those books that became my debut.
AC: Introduced to us in Theft of Swords: The Riyria Revelations #1-2 <where I recommend readers start with MJS, if you haven’t already –AC>, Royce and Hadrian are a great pair, and if I had to guess, they are your most popular characters. Literal partners in crime! They’re perfect anti-heroes. What about them is so compelling for readers, do you think?
MJS: Being first, they certainly have a strong following. Still, several characters in Legends of the First Empire are giving the pair a run for their money. When I started writing them, I didn’t fully realize how much I enjoy duos. Looking back, some of my favorite forms of entertainment revolve around a pair of friends. Some examples include Sam and Frodo, Butch and Sundance (from the Robert Redford and Paul Newman movie), Sam and Al (from Quantum Leap), and Kelly Robinson and Alex Scott (from I Spy). It’s those unbreakable bonds of friendship that I find so compelling, and I’m thrilled to have added another pair of favorites to my list.
But I think what really makes them click is playing off their differences, especially because it presents the opportunity to inject humor. Fantasy, especially these days, can be pretty dire, so I love lightening the mood of Riyria with their witty banter. A great deal of what makes Riyria work is the chemistry between the two. A good test to see if Riyria is right for you is to read the first six pages of Theft of Swords (which you can access here). It encapsulates their dynamic perfectly, and if you like it, you’ll surely enjoy the full novels.
AC: You weren’t always a writer! What were you doing before you could write as a career, and what led to you to this business?
MJS: Did I mention I'm an old geezer? I should have an extensive work history, but the truth is I've only "worked" six years out of sixty. In high school, I was a dishwasher, and after that, I worked in manufacturing. In my early twenties, I was a graphic designer. For most of my adult life, I was a stay-at-home dad (very unusual in the 1980s). Doing that allowed me to write while the kids were taking naps or at school.
Once the kids grew up, I worked in advertising and eventually started my own agency. That helped build my confidence that I wasn't entirely without worth. But the thrill was in the building, and once it got to the humming-right-along stage, I lost interest. This depressed me because I felt adrift. That's when the Harry Potter book showed up and scratched my writing itch. When I told my wife I wanted to write again—but not publish (as that way led to the dark side), she said, "Hey, whatever makes you happy, I'm on board with." We went back to living on a single income (which we had done for most of our marriage). It's not as bad as it sounds. Robin has always enjoyed "working for the man," and she is much smarter than I and earned a much higher salary.
AC: Before long in any professional writer’s group you’ll hear the phrase, “there are many paths up the mountain”, meaning there is more than one way to get published. In your career, you’ve trod almost all of those paths. Can you talk some about your journey?
MJS: Haha, you are right about that! I’ve pretty much done it all, but I’ll try to be brief. So, I started out riding the query-go-round in the 1980s and early 1990s. I wrote thirteen novels and submitted most of them to agents. None of them found any traction. As I mentioned, I stopped writing after that and when I returned (more than a decade later) it was only on the condition that I wouldn’t seek publication. After reading the first three Riyria tales, Robin made it her mission to “get the books out there.”
She hopped on the query-go-round and did land someone. But after all the agent’s attempts went nowhere, she suggested trying small presses (which would take unsolicited submissions). Robin submitted queries to six companies that specialized in fantasy and science fiction, but she didn’t get any responses. Still undaunted, she started investigating self-publishing (which was before kindles even existed), and she learned a lot. She was about to go that route when a small press in Minnesota offered to publish.
That publisher was well-intentioned, but not the best when it came to managing a business. There was no advance, and we never earned a dime of royalties (even though the book sold out its print run). When they didn’t have the cash to print the second book, we had the rights reverted and switched to self-publishing. Sales started to improve with the third book’s release, and by the time the fifth book came out in 2010, we were doing well enough for Robin to quit her day job.
Around this time, Robin thought it was worth “checking in” with New York again. With the help of our foreign rights agent, we reached out to thirteen editors and had immediate interest from half of them. Orbit made what’s called a pre-emptive offer– which means an advance that is so big it attempts to lock in a book before a bidding war breaks out. Since they were our first choice, we went with them. To be honest, I only thought we would sign one contract and return to self-publishing. Still, we signed two more books to Orbit because we didn’t want to send the message of “Well, I couldn’t make it in traditional, and I was forced back to self-publishing."
One of the big disappointments with those first two contracts was the inability to retain audiobook rights (which were becoming an increasingly large portion of our income). So, for the Legends of the First Empire series, Robin sold the audio rights first. She also wanted to move me up to hardcovers, but Orbit thought I could only sell well in paperback. So we split from them. By then, I had another agent who convinced us to "shop" Legends around, and Del Rey came in with an offer we couldn't refuse. Lack of audio rights wasn't a deal-breaker when we signed that contract, but when it came time to negotiate for the second half of the series, the industry had changed. Now, ebook, print, and audio rights are required for all big-five publishers. So that made it impossible to partner with them for the remaining books.
Now we are back to our indie roots, but we do "self-publishing on steroids." We still have bookstore distribution because we do large press runs that involve warehousing and distribution partners. We also sell a lot of books directly to consumers (through our website and Kickstarters). We've always believed that the only two essential people in the chain are the reader and the writer, which means we keep a much bigger part of the pie than some of the other distribution venues. We'll continue to keep our pulse on the industry, and pivot as needed. After all, the landscape of 2008 (when we started) is much different than in 2020.
